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(upbeat music)

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- My name is Dana Goldman.

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I'm the Interim Dean in the
Price School of public Policy.

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And we tend to have a series,
what we do have a series,

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which are Conversations
With The Interim Dean.

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And as those of you who know

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me, you know that I really like to speak.

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But I also will admit
that there are some areas

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where I think it's better
if other people speak

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and this would be one of those topics.

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I'm very pleased that we
could have our guests,

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Thomas Mitchell, which
Richard Green will introduce

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to talk about some issues related

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to minorities and property rights.

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And Richard, I'm just gonna turn it over

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to you, and I'll be
available to do the Q&A.

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- Dana, thank you very much.

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It's my great, great pleasure

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to be able to spend the next
hour with Thomas Mitchell

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talking about work that he
has been quite passionate

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about and successful with
for going on 20 years now.

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I first got to know Thomas,

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when he was a graduate student

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at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison School of Law.

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From there, he moved on to the faculty,

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where we were colleagues together.

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And one of the things I love
to say about people like Thomas

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is I knew them when and
I could see how smart

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they were before they had
it stamped on their forehead

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as being a really smart person.

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And the stamp that Thomas
got a couple of months ago

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was to be named MacArthur
Fellow for this year.

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And needless to say, it's
always a source of great pride

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when you get to work with someone

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who ultimately gets that designation.

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Thomas wrote me into a
project in about 2002,

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funded by the Ford Foundation,

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looking at Black land loss in the cell.

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And it led us on an adventure
where we visited courthouses

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in Mississippi and Eastern North Carolina,

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to look at how property changed hands,

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in particular between
African-American farmers

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and white farmers over the
course of the previous 100 years,

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and I'm not gonna say much more

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about it, because I don't
wanna steal Thomas's thunder.

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But it led to a series of work
that Thomas has spearheaded

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both academic and legislative,
on the implications

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of black land laws and policies

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to make sure it doesn't happen again.

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I think it's worth underscoring
the following point,

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I think everybody knows
that, black people in the US

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have had much less opportunity

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when it comes to acquiring
property than white people

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going back to the beginning
of this country's history.

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But beyond that, black people

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have actually had their property taken

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from them in much greater
numbers than white people.

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And to give an example,
that somewhat different

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from what Thomas has
worked on, if you look

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at the Homeowners Loan Corporation,

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which was a new deal program,
put in place in order to allow

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people who are behind on their mortgages

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to stay in their homes.

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People who lived in neighborhoods

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that have large minority
populations were not able to take

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advantage of that program,

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and so they tended to lose their houses.

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Whereas people who lived in neighborhoods

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with large white populations
were able to take

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advantage of that program,

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and so we're able to retain their houses.

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And so, part of the reason
we see a gap in wealth

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between black folks and
white folks in the US

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is not just the absence of
opportunity for one group

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relative to another, although certainly

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that's been a very
important part of the story.

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But also because black people

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have had their land actively expropriated

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from them until remarkably quite recently.

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So, I'm gonna now turn it over to Thomas.

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First of all, Thomas,
thank you for being here.

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And tell us a little bit about
the nature of your project.

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What you have found both
in terms of the literature

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that you've contributed to,
and now you've translated

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that into legislative
reforms that have taken place

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around the country and may soon

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be taking place here in California?

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- Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much

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for the opportunity to talk

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to the USC Price School of Public Policy.

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Thank you, Dean Goldman.

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Thank you, Richard.

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It's always a pleasure catching
up with you, even though

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we've been doing it
virtually off late, right?

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It's also I'm actually
a native Californian

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from San Francisco.

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Proud graduate at Lowell
High School in San Francisco.

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And so, let me just kinda
situate some of my work.

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As Richard indicated, as
I was a graduate student

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at the University of Wisconsin,
I was doing some research

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and came across the fact
that it was a surprise

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to me that African-Americans had acquired,

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you know somewhere between
16 and 20 million acres

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of agricultural land by 1910.

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Which was a surprise to me,
given that the narrative

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had been that there had
been this failed effort

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to redistribute land to newly freed slaves

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after the Civil War,

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the failed promise of 40 acres and mule.

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So, I was actually surprised
that African-Americans

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had acquired that much land by 1910.

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But that land base has
shrunk precipitously,

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I think, when I was beginning my studies,

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in Wisconsin in the late 90s,

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that land base was down to, let's say,

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3 million, 4 million acres of land.

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So, I became curious about
what were the drivers

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of that land loss, and you know did

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a fair amount of field research.

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I actually had a different
topic for my thesis

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and I but I happened to
be in North Carolina,

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at a meeting of black farmers

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and somebody identified me as an attorney,

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and these families started coming up

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to me and tell me about
this family ownership

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that they referred to as Heirs' Property,

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which is property that
people typically inherit

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when there hasn't been a will.

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They started telling me a
stories of how that property

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had either already been lost
due to real estate speculators

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preying upon these families,

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sometimes some inter family disputes.

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And they were kind of describing the way

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this area of property
all worked, that bore

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no connection to anything I
had learned in law school.

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And so ultimately, I was very polite,

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then I told these families,
I would do some research.

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And then when I came back
to Madison, from that trip,

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I looked at every first
year property textbook,

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every treatise, nothing
that these families

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told me was validated by
anything in the case books

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or textbooks or treatises.

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And but then I asked
the families, they said,

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well, you say there there was
this these quarter pendants,

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can you send me the transcript

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from these rural county courthouses,

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because they're not
available in the databases,

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I was looking at Westlaw and Lexis.

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And I remember the day the
they arrived in Madison,

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and essentially, everything these families

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had told me was true,

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and so, I think that's
where I started realizing

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that this was a much greater
phenomenon than I had realized.

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And I'll just say a quick thing

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about this form of ownership,

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it's called a tenancy in common.

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It's the form of ownership
you get if you don't make

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a will or estate plan,

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and you leave property
with two or more heirs,

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and it's among Real Estate Attorneys

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or attorneys who do
wills trusts and estates,

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it's widely known as being
the most unstable form

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of what we call common
real property ownership,

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in the United States.

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Were essentially a group of
people on fractional interest

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in property, it could be land,

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it could be a single
family home in Los Angeles.

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And the law permits one person

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in the common ownership structure,

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irrespective of the size of
their fractional interest,

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to go into court file a suit
called a partition action,

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and in that partition
action requests the court

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to order a remedy of a
forced sale of the property,

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even if everybody else in
the ownership structure

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wants to maintain ownership.

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And courts, especially with
disadvantaged families,

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started routinely ordering
the sales of these properties,

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indicating that they were
somehow maximizing wealth,

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because theoretically,

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at least with some of
this agricultural land,

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there were theoretically
economies of scale.

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But in fact, it turns out these sales

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were what we call share
sales or auction sales.

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Essentially, they were fire sales.

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And so the family was not
only losing its property,

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but they were being stripped
of a substantial amount

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of their real estate
wealth in the process.

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And when you're dealing with
African-Americans or Latinos,

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though, it's not good,
their asset portfolios

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are not as well diversified,
as with white Americans.

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They're disproportionately
consistent their real estate

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or their real property.

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So, when these families suffer a fire sale

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of their property, it really
has a devastating impact.

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And so, I started in my research

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in started publishing
articles in the early 2000s.

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And it's kind of addressing a variety

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of manifestations of this problem.

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And I proposed a number of legal reforms

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or policy solutions.

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Now, if you go back to the
early 2000s the proposals,

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my proposals were, I was
considered a wild-eyed optimist,

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I was considered hopelessly naive.

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And there was some
empirical support for that.

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There had been many attempts
in many southern states,

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at least beginning in the 1970s,
to reform this area of law,

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and they pretty much all failed.

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And so people said, what makes you think

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that you would have any
greater success given,

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and they fail for a reason,
they fail because these people

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lack political and economic power,

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no matter how unjust the property law is.

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The lucky break I caught
was in the Associated Press

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got very interested in this phenomenon,

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they did, months long
investigative report,

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traveling throughout
several states in the south.

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So, I kind of overnight
when the AP came out

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with what ended up being
award winning story,

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I went from being,
wild-eyed hopeless optimist,

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to National Expert, Thomas
Mitchell, on this area of law.

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And that motivated the
American Bar Association

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to put together a task force
to see what can be done,

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I was asked to be on task force.

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And the most ambitious
thing that we pushed

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was to see fundamental reform
of this state property law.

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Which involved, is the
organization United States

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that's had the longest history

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of drafting model state statutes

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is called the Uniform Law Commission.

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Most lawyers don't know it.

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Most law professors, their eyes glaze over

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when you mentioned that.

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But when I mentioned at
least the lawyers and said,

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Have you ever heard of the
Uniform Commercial Code,

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the UCC everybody, all
lawyers know what that is?

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And I said, where do you
think that came from?

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It's like, the Uniform Law Commission.

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So, the Uniform Law Commission accepted

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our proposal in 2007, to
form a drafting committee

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to fundamentally drafted a new law,

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and then I was appointed to
be the principal drafter.

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And then, we finished in 2010,
and we've had since 2011,

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we now we're up to 17 states,

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and the United States Virgin Islands

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that have enacted this into law,

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I think what's most surprising,

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I mean, is most surprising anybody

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that we've had any success

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because it was viewed as
gonna be a failed effort.

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But even for me, it's
been a little surprising

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that eight of the 17 states
are located in the south,

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we just got in 2020,

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we got Florida, Virginia, and Mississippi,

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00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:41,130
which I had always
conceded, would be something

255
00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:43,873
that would not be possible
for three generations.

256
00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:49,626
So, let me just stop kind
of there just a little bit,

257
00:12:49,626 --> 00:12:51,350
because I want to make sure that Richard,

258
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:54,670
if you want to prime
the pump, a little bit.

259
00:12:54,670 --> 00:12:55,503
- Sure.

260
00:12:55,503 --> 00:12:58,240
So, and before I start
asking you questions,

261
00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,530
I just wanna remind the audience

262
00:12:59,530 --> 00:13:02,880
that the Q&A box is available
for questions to Thomas

263
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,600
and I will try to pass along
to him as many as possible

264
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,733
before we adjourn for the afternoon.

265
00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:14,610
So Thomas, one of the
things about these stories

266
00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:18,623
is there is some color surrounding them.

267
00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:23,180
You described what happened
with partition sales

268
00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:27,040
in a very scholarly and appropriate way.

269
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,930
But if you could regale
us with one or two stories

270
00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:33,670
about how these things went,
and beyond partitions cells,

271
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:37,650
I find it particularly
interesting how property taxes

272
00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:39,410
were used as a mechanism.

273
00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:40,243
- [Thomas] Sure.

274
00:13:40,243 --> 00:13:41,520
- Appropriate property.

275
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:42,353
- Yeah.

276
00:13:42,353 --> 00:13:44,970
So, one of the things
is I've had to navigate

277
00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:47,470
being an academic, but
also being very active

278
00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:49,000
in terms of law and policy front

279
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,830
is when you're kinda in
the law and policy circles

280
00:13:51,830 --> 00:13:53,660
and you're talking to elected officials

281
00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:56,260
and other policyholders,

282
00:13:56,260 --> 00:13:58,570
it's different than academic
presentation, right?

283
00:13:58,570 --> 00:14:00,262
You got to tell a story.

284
00:14:00,262 --> 00:14:02,610
And luckily, or maybe not so luckily,

285
00:14:02,610 --> 00:14:04,440
because of the abuse in this area,

286
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,923
I have a number of stories.

287
00:14:06,922 --> 00:14:08,850
So, just one thing kind of beginning

288
00:14:08,850 --> 00:14:13,300
is just that Hilton Head
Island in South Carolina,

289
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,410
up until 1950, the majority
of the property owners

290
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:19,060
in Hilton Head were African-American.

291
00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:23,360
And so, this property
base that I indicated

292
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,830
that African-Americans acquired up

293
00:14:24,830 --> 00:14:27,790
until about 1910 and 1920.

294
00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:32,020
Is I mean, compared today
was much more substantial,

295
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:33,720
but the property that African-Americans,

296
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,123
typically acquired was
not prime real estate.

297
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:38,960
And Hilton Head back
then was not considered

298
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,178
prime real estate because
there was no easy way

299
00:14:43,178 --> 00:14:45,770
from the mainland, in South Carolina

300
00:14:45,770 --> 00:14:48,560
out to Hilton Head, there was no bridge.

301
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,167
And in the early 1950s,

302
00:14:51,167 --> 00:14:53,940
the state of South Carolina built a bridge

303
00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:57,120
and all kinds of real estate
developers had visions

304
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,470
in their mind basically
what Hilton Head has become.

305
00:15:00,470 --> 00:15:02,840
And so, they picked off one family

306
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,800
after another to the point
they, it's like shocking

307
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,120
to hear that in 1950,

308
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,630
this property was majority
kind of black owned.

309
00:15:12,630 --> 00:15:15,750
Right, there's a family I
encountered in my research

310
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:20,040
of South Carolina that
was part of a community

311
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,060
that actually got land from somebody

312
00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:26,010
who had been a signatory to the
Declaration of Independence.

313
00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:29,173
It's called the Phillips
Community in rural South Carolina.

314
00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:31,460
And about 10 years ago,

315
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:36,239
you had an outside speculator
who preyed upon this family

316
00:15:36,239 --> 00:15:40,910
this property is that's invested
with real deep historical

317
00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:43,630
and cultural kind of significance,

318
00:15:43,630 --> 00:15:47,470
picked off one family
member who was in Chicago,

319
00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:49,260
or Detroit or LA.

320
00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:51,510
And that's typically what
these speculators have done,

321
00:15:51,510 --> 00:15:53,750
they pick on somebody
who's a distant relative--

322
00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:54,930
- And I'm sorry to interrupt

323
00:15:54,930 --> 00:15:57,210
but they specifically
they use quick claims

324
00:15:57,210 --> 00:15:58,800
in order to do this correct?

325
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,370
- Yeah.

326
00:16:00,370 --> 00:16:02,020
And, sometimes quick claim,

327
00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:04,470
sometimes they buy out
their fractional interest.

328
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:06,760
And when they usually
do that, they buy out

329
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,690
the fractional interest
for a low-ball price,

330
00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:11,890
because oftentimes,
these distant relatives,

331
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:15,680
the first time they learned
that they have a 2% interest

332
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,880
in the land is when the
speculator shows up.

333
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:21,010
And so, this is what this speculator did.

334
00:16:21,010 --> 00:16:25,120
And then within a couple years,

335
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,143
they forced the sale of this property.

336
00:16:29,189 --> 00:16:32,880
He had property that was,
I think the buyout price

337
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,730
was, it was like, $200,000
for a property that ended up

338
00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:40,180
then selling a couple
years later for $2 million.

339
00:16:42,651 --> 00:16:45,810
And so, you've had that,
you've had families I know

340
00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:50,300
where it's the, 85 year old matriarch,

341
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,950
with the third grade
education on their deathbed,

342
00:16:53,950 --> 00:16:55,800
who has been bought out.

343
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,973
So, I've heard that that
kind of story several times.

344
00:17:01,858 --> 00:17:03,640
One of the things that's
interesting, I think,

345
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,840
as I was made the
transformation from just doing

346
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,840
purely academic stuff, and then
also adding this long policy

347
00:17:12,330 --> 00:17:16,140
is to kind of sell our story a little bit.

348
00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:19,920
I realized early on in
actually the drafting process

349
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,190
that I had to generalize
this more than just situating

350
00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:26,390
this as a problem only
impacting African-Americans,

351
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:28,590
and only in the rural south.

352
00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:30,580
So, I did some research
and ended up finding out

353
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:33,190
that though it's disproportionately

354
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:36,470
in African-American problem,
it's not exclusively,

355
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:39,260
that there are Latinos in the southwest,

356
00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:42,560
there are poor whites in Appalachia,

357
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,870
there are some Native
Americans in some states

358
00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:47,800
where their property law is governed

359
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,290
not by this trust relationship,
or the federal government,

360
00:17:50,290 --> 00:17:52,760
but by the state property law.

361
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,150
And then in Hawaii, so while
we're trying to broaden,

362
00:17:57,150 --> 00:17:59,890
so I'm gonna tell you a
little bit about Hawaii.

363
00:17:59,890 --> 00:18:03,360
We got our act passing by in 2017,

364
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,283
with a effective date of January 1 2018.

365
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:13,470
On December 31 2017, a
prominent property owner

366
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,200
on the island of Hawaii
had this huge estate.

367
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,230
And as part of his huge estate,
there were eight or nine

368
00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:25,920
properties that were in
the interior boundaries

369
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,540
of the estate that were owned

370
00:18:27,540 --> 00:18:30,080
by these native Hawaiian
families where he had to grant

371
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,970
an easement to the families

372
00:18:31,970 --> 00:18:34,570
to have them access their property.

373
00:18:34,570 --> 00:18:35,920
He didn't wanna do this anymore,

374
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,920
he wanted to acquire those properties.

375
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,520
So, one day before I act became effective,

376
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,810
he filed nine of these lawsuits requesting

377
00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:47,320
a forced sale of the property.

378
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,280
So, if I was his real estate attorney,

379
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,617
and he had come to me and said,

380
00:18:50,617 --> 00:18:53,280
"my goal is to force a
sale these properties,

381
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,767
it's a perfectly legal goal."

382
00:18:56,820 --> 00:18:58,510
I would have told him you will do better

383
00:18:58,510 --> 00:19:00,863
under the old law than this new law.

384
00:19:01,860 --> 00:19:03,530
And I probably would have advised

385
00:19:03,530 --> 00:19:04,990
him, that's a good thing to do.

386
00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:08,140
Now, if I had been his PR
person, I would have said,

387
00:19:08,140 --> 00:19:10,540
listen, we got some other
things to think about.

388
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:14,500
But either he didn't
consult this PR person

389
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:16,410
or as PR person gave them some bad advice,

390
00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:21,260
because he did file a suit and
it generated massive amounts

391
00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:23,750
of controversy in Hawaii.

392
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:26,243
There were headlines literally that said,

393
00:19:27,410 --> 00:19:31,430
this landowner tries to evade
protections of this new law

394
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:34,283
that will become effective
24 hours from now.

395
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:37,650
I think you probably have
heard of this property owner.

396
00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:40,570
He's a guy named Mark Zuckerberg,

397
00:19:40,570 --> 00:19:43,150
I'm just thinking that you
might have heard of him.

398
00:19:43,150 --> 00:19:46,630
He got such bad press about this.

399
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:48,740
It was such a public relations disaster.

400
00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:51,680
He basically dismissed his
lawsuits and made it clear

401
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,530
he had no intention of trying to forcibly

402
00:19:53,530 --> 00:19:55,820
acquire these properties.

403
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:57,980
The last example I'll kind
of give you, is for years

404
00:19:57,980 --> 00:19:59,300
I've been telling people

405
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,730
that not always is not just
a African-American problem,

406
00:20:02,730 --> 00:20:05,583
it's a problem that has four drivers.

407
00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:10,360
The first driver is a very
low incidence of making wills.

408
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:12,260
So, there's a variety of regional studies

409
00:20:12,260 --> 00:20:14,090
in the United States,
there's no national study

410
00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:16,860
that looks at will making
or estate planning rates.

411
00:20:16,860 --> 00:20:19,410
And it's kind of impossible
to do a national study

412
00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:20,670
for methodological reasons.

413
00:20:20,670 --> 00:20:23,670
But there's a number of regional studies.

414
00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:26,060
So, these studies typically
show that somewhere

415
00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:29,963
between 50 and 55% of
Americans make a will.

416
00:20:31,030 --> 00:20:36,030
But the will making rates, there
is a huge ratio will making

417
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,650
or a real estate planning
gap in this country, right?

418
00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:41,740
So, I think the average
white family makes wills

419
00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:43,800
at the rate of 55%,

420
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,340
according to one study
from Washington, St. Louis.

421
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:50,610
And the average and
African-Americans make wills

422
00:20:50,610 --> 00:20:52,017
at the rate of 23%.

423
00:20:52,017 --> 00:20:53,520
And the Latino will making rate

424
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,410
is very much similar to
the African-American.

425
00:20:56,410 --> 00:20:58,660
One of the things I found,
like kind of most disturbing

426
00:20:58,660 --> 00:21:03,095
is that the, in every
racial or ethnic group,

427
00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:06,238
not surprisingly, those who
make wills at the highest rate

428
00:21:06,238 --> 00:21:08,100
of them are the more educated.

429
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:12,790
So among white Americans,
73% of white Americans

430
00:21:12,790 --> 00:21:14,530
with a college degree make a will.

431
00:21:14,530 --> 00:21:18,990
But at least in the Washington
study, 55% of white Americans

432
00:21:18,990 --> 00:21:21,250
with no high school degree make a will.

433
00:21:21,250 --> 00:21:22,900
And the African-American community,

434
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:26,400
it is true that African-Americans
with the highest education

435
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,020
with a college degree or college

436
00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:29,880
or graduate or professional degree,

437
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,800
make wills at the highest rate,

438
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,800
but only 33% of that
demographic makes wills.

439
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:40,900
And so, you have low rates of will making,

440
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:43,090
you have typically a lack of access

441
00:21:43,090 --> 00:21:44,880
to affordable legal services,

442
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,670
so people can kinda structure
their kind of ownership.

443
00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:50,860
You have families who are
particularly vulnerable,

444
00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:53,480
who are low income or low wealth.

445
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,370
And then the last driver
that really has led

446
00:21:55,370 --> 00:21:57,190
to a lot of these for sales,

447
00:21:57,190 --> 00:22:00,670
is that going back to the
South Carolina example,

448
00:22:00,670 --> 00:22:03,560
the property when it
initially was acquired,

449
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,270
was not considered prime real estate.

450
00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:08,760
But over time, it's now either newly

451
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,620
in the path of development,

452
00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:14,170
like Hilton Head was or in urban sprawl,

453
00:22:14,170 --> 00:22:17,010
or it's an area where there's
been a rapid appreciation

454
00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:18,010
of real estate values,

455
00:22:18,010 --> 00:22:21,693
like gentrification in LA, New York, DC.

456
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:25,130
And so, I've been making
this point for a long time,

457
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:26,740
but this is not just a rural problem,

458
00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:28,010
but it's also an urban problem.

459
00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:31,610
But essentially, almost
all the media coverage

460
00:22:31,610 --> 00:22:34,380
was about African-Americans
in the rural south

461
00:22:34,380 --> 00:22:37,860
and I would talk to
reporters, I'd make this point

462
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:39,250
and then the article would come out

463
00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:41,070
and be about some African-American family

464
00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:42,060
in the rural south.

465
00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:44,950
Until 2019, there was an
investigative reporter

466
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:49,950
for major television station
in New York City, NY1.

467
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:52,890
And she did an amazing
investigative report

468
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:54,450
of how real estate speculators

469
00:22:54,450 --> 00:22:56,410
in almost every borough of New York,

470
00:22:56,410 --> 00:22:59,070
were preying upon African-Americans

471
00:22:59,070 --> 00:23:01,390
who had high equity
properties, oftentimes,

472
00:23:01,390 --> 00:23:04,150
because the families got the
properties when it was redline,

473
00:23:04,150 --> 00:23:05,700
so they needed a lot of cash.

474
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,450
They didn't have financing,
but they were not paid off.

475
00:23:09,362 --> 00:23:14,340
And that article, and it wasn't
an article was televised.

476
00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:16,880
Within a week of that being televised,

477
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,750
there was almost a competition
among legislate tours

478
00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:22,100
in the New York legislature to see

479
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:24,530
who can introduce our bill at first.

480
00:23:24,530 --> 00:23:26,380
And it was pretty It was
pretty late introduction,

481
00:23:26,380 --> 00:23:28,250
early April, and it rocketed

482
00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:29,520
through the New York legislature.

483
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,700
I mean, some people told me
they had never seen a bill move

484
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:36,140
that fast and because of
this media story about that.

485
00:23:36,140 --> 00:23:38,390
So, those are some of the,
whether it's the Hilton Head

486
00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:41,404
or the Mark Zuckerberg in
Hawaii, or the New York City,

487
00:23:41,404 --> 00:23:46,310
if you have other flavors, I
got an Iowa farm story for you.

488
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:47,362
I'm got--

489
00:23:47,362 --> 00:23:49,700
- I'm gonna ask you about one more,

490
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:50,850
but just a couple of things.

491
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:54,580
One is that New York one
story really was remarkable.

492
00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:55,970
And I don't know if it's available,

493
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:57,822
if a link is available to watch it.

494
00:23:57,822 --> 00:23:58,655
- Yeah.

495
00:23:58,655 --> 00:24:00,220
- And ask our team here at Price

496
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:02,660
to make that link available
if it is because the audience

497
00:24:02,660 --> 00:24:04,300
should see that story.

498
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,720
It was it was very, very well done.

499
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,290
- Yeah, I would say that story.

500
00:24:08,290 --> 00:24:10,390
And I was interviewed for Vice,

501
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:13,260
which is used to be on
HBO, now on Showtime.

502
00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:14,670
They did this amazing story

503
00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:17,123
of this rural family in Louisiana.

504
00:24:18,010 --> 00:24:21,410
And it's powerful.

505
00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:25,100
So, I like the two of them,
because one's rural, one urban.

506
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:26,810
- And then the second thing
there's there's a question

507
00:24:26,810 --> 00:24:27,643
from the audience.

508
00:24:27,643 --> 00:24:28,930
And I was to leave this toward later,

509
00:24:28,930 --> 00:24:32,163
but this just dovetails so
well, with what you just said.

510
00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:37,170
There's a debate on reparations
for the injury harm caused

511
00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:39,840
by racist policies before
and after the Civil War.

512
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,400
There are multiple proposals
that, do you see establishing

513
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,120
a state plans and legal protections

514
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,230
for descendants as one remedy?

515
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:49,210
Could so Could this be part
of a reparations package?

516
00:24:49,210 --> 00:24:51,270
- Yeah, so here's what I
was talking about that.

517
00:24:51,270 --> 00:24:54,920
Is that, I've been very active

518
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,350
in terms of this state law reform effort.

519
00:24:59,350 --> 00:25:03,420
And as you indicated,
we have now every region

520
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:06,330
of the US from the far
west to the northeast,

521
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:09,170
to the south to the
Midwest to the southwest.

522
00:25:09,170 --> 00:25:13,070
And just yesterday, I think I told

523
00:25:13,070 --> 00:25:14,790
you this morning, Richard,

524
00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:17,240
the California Association
of Realtors has reached out

525
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,681
to me and they want to
champion my model state statute

526
00:25:20,681 --> 00:25:22,913
in California, which would be great.

527
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:27,650
But part of the success
I've had at the state level,

528
00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:30,920
I've been able now to
leverage at the federal level,

529
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,400
there was a couple provisions
in the 2018 Farm Bill

530
00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:38,130
that were really important.

531
00:25:38,130 --> 00:25:42,370
And then just in the last, like 10 days,

532
00:25:42,370 --> 00:25:45,430
Senators Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand,

533
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:48,320
and Elizabeth Warren, introduced a bill

534
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,660
called The Justice for Black Farmers Act.

535
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:54,220
And in drafting that bill,
they consulted with me.

536
00:25:54,220 --> 00:25:59,220
And, so we had kind of long,
lengthy discussions about it.

537
00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:00,700
And so one of the things I made clear

538
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:04,104
is my property law reform,

539
00:26:04,104 --> 00:26:08,040
essentially trying to secure
and stabilized property rights

540
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,660
for people who still own their property.

541
00:26:10,660 --> 00:26:12,050
But it does nothing for people

542
00:26:12,050 --> 00:26:13,763
who already lost their property.

543
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,493
And so, if you want a
comprehensive solution,

544
00:26:19,456 --> 00:26:21,170
you would want something
that would provide

545
00:26:21,170 --> 00:26:23,750
some type of redress, or acknowledge

546
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:25,580
and some type of remedy,

547
00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:28,730
you would wanna kinda stabilize property,

548
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:32,420
like consistent with like,
the efforts I've undertaken

549
00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:36,010
in terms of my state law reform efforts.

550
00:26:36,010 --> 00:26:38,110
And you would also wanna identify

551
00:26:38,110 --> 00:26:41,240
what are some vulnerabilities
these families face,

552
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,030
that we should put into place resources,

553
00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:45,920
so that this problem

554
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,920
just doesn't keep
occurring into the future?

555
00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:52,970
So, one of the things that justice begun,

556
00:26:52,970 --> 00:26:55,440
it's painfully obvious to me in my work

557
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,600
is that there is just this chronic lack

558
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,600
of affordable legal services
for these property owners.

559
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:08,650
And, every time I'm in the media,

560
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:12,600
I get just a flurry of
emails from families

561
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,350
in desperate straits who
can't afford a lawyer.

562
00:27:16,350 --> 00:27:20,040
And so, one of the
things that in this bill

563
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,500
is just that Booker, Gillibrand,
and Warren is introduced,

564
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:29,250
is in something like $50
million a year for resources

565
00:27:29,250 --> 00:27:33,740
to help these disadvantaged,
property owning families,

566
00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:37,590
and to the legal services really to target

567
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:39,373
at kind of estate planning.

568
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:41,500
And then the secondly way to try

569
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,700
to get them to enable them to reorganize

570
00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:48,880
their common ownership out
of this incredibly unstable

571
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,880
form of ownership is tenancy in common,

572
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,400
which many of these families
refer to as Heirs' Property,

573
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,330
because under the intestacy
laws, if you don't make a will

574
00:27:57,330 --> 00:27:59,090
your property goes to your heirs

575
00:27:59,090 --> 00:28:01,910
and is so I've been so
common in these communities

576
00:28:01,910 --> 00:28:04,620
that they have a colloquial expressions

577
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:06,380
it's called Heirs' Property.

578
00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:08,520
And so, to have them
transfer that property

579
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,250
or transform it from this
worst form of ownership,

580
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:14,360
common ownership to something

581
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:17,382
like a limited liability company.

582
00:28:17,382 --> 00:28:19,560
Or you could have tenancy
in common ownership

583
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,300
where you are contracting
around the worst features

584
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:23,570
of the default rules.

585
00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:25,390
So, I think legal services

586
00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:30,172
is just incredibly kind of important.

587
00:28:30,172 --> 00:28:33,960
There's another aspect of this
Justice for Black Farmers Act

588
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,960
where there will actually be
grants of land up to 160 acres

589
00:28:40,252 --> 00:28:42,350
for families with a provision

590
00:28:42,350 --> 00:28:46,780
of additional technical assistance,
to enable these families

591
00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:51,400
to participate in various
federal government programs

592
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,340
in a way that would make

593
00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:55,130
their property ownership kind of viable.

594
00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:59,130
And so, that kind of addresses
folks who, either families

595
00:28:59,130 --> 00:29:01,350
who lost property or
people who wanna newly get

596
00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:03,880
into farming, for example,

597
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,380
and then there's like an
apprenticeship program,

598
00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:08,130
where people would serve as an apprentice

599
00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:10,700
for a successful farm operation
for three or four years

600
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:12,470
with some government resources

601
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:14,770
in terms of technical
systems and training,

602
00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:16,250
so that they would then emerge

603
00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:19,640
from the apprenticeship
program ready to actually start

604
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,530
a farm of their own if
they can get the resources

605
00:29:21,530 --> 00:29:26,300
to acquire that or to rent
land to be a successful farmer.

606
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:29,660
So, there's a range of kind of solutions,

607
00:29:29,660 --> 00:29:32,190
some of these whether it's legal services

608
00:29:32,190 --> 00:29:34,050
that could be the federal
government has a role,

609
00:29:34,050 --> 00:29:37,470
state governments have a
role, foundations have a role.

610
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:39,250
Law firms in terms of expanding

611
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:41,010
the type of pro bono work they do,

612
00:29:41,010 --> 00:29:44,320
which typically is litigation,
not what we call transaction,

613
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,120
not real estate or tax
or wills, trust estate.

614
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,080
So, there's that the
problem is very large,

615
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,560
and there's a role for many stakeholders.

616
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,440
- I wanna ask you two more questions,

617
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:54,930
and I'm going to turn
it over to the audience.

618
00:29:54,930 --> 00:29:58,550
So again, please feel
free to use the Q&A box.

619
00:29:58,550 --> 00:30:02,780
First, I just wanna return to
how property taxes were used

620
00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:04,430
as a method for expropriation.

621
00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:07,300
Because for some reason,
as outrageous as everything

622
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:09,230
was when we traveled together

623
00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:13,110
that for some reason, really hit me.

624
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:15,960
But tell us a little bit
about how that worked,

625
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,740
and how we might make sure
that doesn't happen again?

626
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:22,030
- Yeah, so in terms of the property taxes,

627
00:30:22,030 --> 00:30:25,690
there's a range of problems
with these property taxes.

628
00:30:25,690 --> 00:30:28,680
So oftentimes, what we
have is you have properties

629
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,910
that are owned by people of color,

630
00:30:31,910 --> 00:30:35,610
and that their property taxes
tend to be overly assessed

631
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:40,610
and properties among, white
Americans have some means

632
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,720
tends to be under assessed.

633
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,310
So, you have that kind
of structural problem

634
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:49,180
at the beginning, in terms
of just the carrying charges

635
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:51,680
and maintaining ownership of the property.

636
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,703
But then you have, you have examples.

637
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,183
There's a huge problem in
Detroit now with property taxes.

638
00:30:59,183 --> 00:31:01,790
And that's not even like
really a racial issue.

639
00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:03,410
It's because Detroit

640
00:31:03,410 --> 00:31:06,560
is a been a struggling city financially,

641
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,160
that when the great recession hit

642
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,000
and property values depreciated,

643
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,150
the city of Detroit still
assess the properties

644
00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:15,137
as if they were at the high point

645
00:31:15,137 --> 00:31:17,943
of the real estate market,
because they needed money.

646
00:31:18,922 --> 00:31:22,610
And even though by the
Michigan constitution,

647
00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:24,950
they weren't supposed to
do that, they did that.

648
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:27,510
These families often
didn't have legal resources

649
00:31:27,510 --> 00:31:31,170
to challenge these property assessments

650
00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:33,750
that were grossly inflated.

651
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:35,010
And then you've had some problems

652
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:39,900
with families historically,
that became like

653
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:42,500
during the Civil Rights
Movement in Mississippi,

654
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,970
where families became active
in the Civil Rights movement.

655
00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:48,320
And then they got targeted

656
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,990
for discriminatory kind of assessments.

657
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:56,000
The issue though, Richard,
one of the things that Richard

658
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,750
is referring to is, we were
looking for a field site

659
00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:02,070
for this Ford Foundation
Grant, and so we went

660
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:04,690
to three or four counties
in rural Mississippi,

661
00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:09,410
and then three or four in
rural Eastern North Carolina.

662
00:32:09,410 --> 00:32:13,540
So I walk into this county courthouse

663
00:32:13,540 --> 00:32:15,753
with Richard and Steve Malpezzi,

664
00:32:15,753 --> 00:32:17,890
has he one of his colleagues at Wisconsin.

665
00:32:17,890 --> 00:32:18,723
And we basically present

666
00:32:18,723 --> 00:32:22,068
ourselves with this kind of
academic team from Wisconsin

667
00:32:22,068 --> 00:32:26,770
we wanna study the economic ramifications

668
00:32:26,770 --> 00:32:29,450
of a variety of forced sales.

669
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:32,470
I think we kind of left it
at we try to be generic,

670
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:34,810
very much sounding like academics.

671
00:32:34,810 --> 00:32:38,270
And I say, whether we're
talking about partition sales

672
00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:41,440
or foreclosure or tax sales,

673
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,150
and there was the County Register of Deeds

674
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:46,170
was this woman in her mid 60s,

675
00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:48,460
who had worked in that
role for a few decades.

676
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:49,660
However, I forget her last name,

677
00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:51,897
her first name was BJ or her initials.

678
00:32:51,897 --> 00:32:52,730
- BJ, yeah, that's right.

679
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:55,060
- Yeah BJ, and BJ said, unfortunately,

680
00:32:55,060 --> 00:32:58,230
I'm sorry that you all
traveled from so far away,

681
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:01,070
because there's no problems in our county

682
00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:03,250
with any of these for sales.

683
00:33:03,250 --> 00:33:06,430
And then, but we let her
she's kind of talkative.

684
00:33:06,430 --> 00:33:09,170
And then she went on, she
said, I think one of us said,

685
00:33:09,170 --> 00:33:11,860
well, can you tell us
how the tax sales work?

686
00:33:11,860 --> 00:33:16,860
And she said, oh, and
in every state statute

687
00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:21,558
with a tax sales, there's got
to be noticed to the public,

688
00:33:21,558 --> 00:33:24,130
well in advance of the tax sale,

689
00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:27,900
there's rules for governing the bidding.

690
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:30,530
And so we said, for example,
like what are the rules

691
00:33:30,530 --> 00:33:33,450
about notice in this part of Mississippi,

692
00:33:33,450 --> 00:33:37,720
or the state of Mississippi,
to the public for the sales,

693
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,420
and BJ, and I can't replicate her draw,

694
00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:42,370
because I don't have a southern accent.

695
00:33:44,731 --> 00:33:48,930
But BJ said, oh, no, no,
no problems with tax sales.

696
00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:53,310
And we're too civilized
to go through this process

697
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:57,230
of providing the public because
that would be a free for all

698
00:33:57,230 --> 00:33:58,740
of people showing up.

699
00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:01,343
What we do is keep a log

700
00:34:03,131 --> 00:34:06,630
of these three different
real estate companies.

701
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:09,963
And they take turns having exclusive bids,

702
00:34:10,820 --> 00:34:12,980
on the properties that
come up for a tax sale,

703
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:15,780
and that's obviously civilized
than having a bunch of people

704
00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:20,577
in the room, raising
their hands and (mumbling)

705
00:34:20,577 --> 00:34:22,460
I mean, it was just amazing
because what she was telling

706
00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:26,420
us was totally and utterly illegal.

707
00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:28,840
But it had become such the norm

708
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,040
there that she didn't have any more to say

709
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,135
I shouldn't reveal that
we are systematically

710
00:34:35,135 --> 00:34:39,440
(mumbling) County, Mississippi.

711
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,080
But you have a window in there is a gap

712
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,910
between what the formal law requires

713
00:34:45,910 --> 00:34:48,060
and then what actually sometimes we talk

714
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:51,140
about the law in action
or the law on the ground.

715
00:34:51,140 --> 00:34:53,380
And that was quite revealing.

716
00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:56,150
I mean, I don't wanna
just pick on the south.

717
00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:57,930
I mean, I was a story in Detroit,

718
00:34:57,930 --> 00:35:02,930
where the folks run right or
systematically breaking the law

719
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:06,030
in terms of overly assessing problems.

720
00:35:06,030 --> 00:35:08,690
Now, you might think that's
a more sympathetic case,

721
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:11,340
in terms of their being
stretched for resources

722
00:35:11,340 --> 00:35:12,990
and feeling like they were constrained.

723
00:35:12,990 --> 00:35:16,040
And we can be able to have,
we can have that debate

724
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,760
or discussion or better
understanding about the dynamics

725
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,410
that led to Detroit doing

726
00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:23,320
that, but they were violating the law.

727
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,530
So I think that's, so
that's been a problem,

728
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:29,410
kind of with with tax sales.

729
00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:31,690
I mean, obviously, with
tax sales, too, I mean,

730
00:35:31,690 --> 00:35:35,020
what I'm describing is
some range of illegality.

731
00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:36,530
But then you have in these places

732
00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:40,080
where there are obviously
gentrifying what a huge driver

733
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,560
of kind of, whether in urban or rural

734
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,377
has been just the property
tax assessments going up

735
00:35:46,377 --> 00:35:49,660
and these families fundamentally
not having the income

736
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:52,653
to maintain or to be able to pay

737
00:35:52,653 --> 00:35:55,120
the property taxes as they go up.

738
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,350
- So, I have an interesting question here

739
00:35:58,350 --> 00:36:01,730
about which was a little off topic.

740
00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:04,120
But I think it's worth
exploring a little bit

741
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,693
about HOAs as and asking, are
they the new property tax,

742
00:36:08,820 --> 00:36:11,480
specifically subdivisions
designed for uniformity

743
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,803
but restrictive in terms of affordability?

744
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,270
- Yeah, so I think that's at least

745
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:19,570
in terms of the among property professors,

746
00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:21,740
that's something that profit
professor has been talking

747
00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:26,120
about for a few decades,
is should we just allow

748
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,640
that and accept that that's
just the private market?

749
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,640
And it should be lightly
regulated by the state?

750
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:36,490
Or does it have spillover effects

751
00:36:36,490 --> 00:36:39,440
in terms of increasing
the cost of housing,

752
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,220
outside those communities as
common interest communities

753
00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:45,733
become much more kind of prevalent?

754
00:36:47,436 --> 00:36:49,019
So, it's one thing,

755
00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:55,679
if we're dealing common
interest communities,

756
00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:58,660
and HOAs that are very
discreet and small part

757
00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:02,690
the overall housing market,
but that's, obviously,

758
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:04,339
over the last decades,

759
00:37:04,339 --> 00:37:08,300
they become occupying a
much more prominent part

760
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:11,930
of the of the real estate housing market,

761
00:37:11,930 --> 00:37:14,360
which then does make their types

762
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,583
of kind of private regulation.

763
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:20,160
That it it kind of begs the question,

764
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,860
should there be more kind
of governmental regulation,

765
00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:26,213
if it has these kind of externalities?

766
00:37:27,666 --> 00:37:32,666
So, I haven't looked at
the data, enough to know,

767
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,330
is there like some tipping point

768
00:37:35,330 --> 00:37:38,730
where there should be at
least a more robust discussion

769
00:37:38,730 --> 00:37:43,730
about having significantly
or some significant more

770
00:37:44,110 --> 00:37:47,020
kind of regulation of these or not?

771
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:48,650
So.

772
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:50,650
- So there are a number
of questions that relate

773
00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:55,650
to how do we deal retroactively
with these injustices?

774
00:37:56,250 --> 00:38:00,880
So, your legislation is
an enormous step forward,

775
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,960
but it basically prevents bad stuff

776
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,590
from happening going forward.

777
00:38:04,590 --> 00:38:07,090
And I think this one particular question

778
00:38:07,090 --> 00:38:10,860
from anonymous attendee
puts it pretty, quite well.

779
00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:13,130
You mentioned the potential
of rural land transfers

780
00:38:13,130 --> 00:38:15,400
to African-Americans,
where do you see potential

781
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,130
of restorative justice
for city based folks

782
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:19,580
where land as much scarcer?

783
00:38:19,580 --> 00:38:21,970
- Yeah, so I think it's interesting

784
00:38:21,970 --> 00:38:25,400
because that, even though my initially

785
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,370
it was predominantly in the south,

786
00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:31,210
although I broadened it
for academic reasons,

787
00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:32,820
but also for my long policy,

788
00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:34,320
as I was trying to build a bigger movement

789
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,033
across the country for my statue.

790
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:40,280
But initially, it kind of
started, I'm from San Francisco,

791
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,620
and '55, when I was, in 1970,

792
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:47,740
was the high watermark
draft in San Francisco,

793
00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:51,250
13.5% consideration, was African-American.

794
00:38:51,250 --> 00:38:54,900
Today San Francisco, has an
African-American population

795
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,723
of 3% and that's
disproportionately homeless.

796
00:38:58,667 --> 00:39:01,430
And so, and I kind of witnessed

797
00:39:01,430 --> 00:39:03,920
when I was there, a lot
of African-Americans

798
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,080
kind of being pushed out
whether they're business owners,

799
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,103
some homeowners and some renters.

800
00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:14,130
So, I think that when we're
talking about addressing

801
00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:18,623
kind of historical redress,
that's tricky, right?

802
00:39:18,623 --> 00:39:20,750
Because we're dealing with, especially

803
00:39:20,750 --> 00:39:22,810
where there's been gentrification,

804
00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:27,810
the property values now are so
they've appreciated so much.

805
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,260
It's a very expensive proposition,

806
00:39:32,260 --> 00:39:36,120
if you're talking about
kinda historical redress.

807
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,000
And for that reason, I haven't
heard a lot of discussion

808
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,300
about historical redress,

809
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,120
at least in highly appreciating cities,

810
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,680
whether it's LA, San Francisco,
DC, New York, what have you.

811
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,600
I have more heard of about folks talking

812
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,630
about in terms of thinking
about different types

813
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:59,630
of ownership structures that
would kind of be buffering

814
00:40:00,450 --> 00:40:03,020
against gentrification forces.

815
00:40:03,020 --> 00:40:05,710
So for example, community land,

816
00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:10,200
where these could be either
sponsored by a non-profit,

817
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,380
or in some cities like Chicago,

818
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:17,180
they have municipal sponsored
community land trust.

819
00:40:17,180 --> 00:40:18,750
So, the idea of community land trust

820
00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:23,750
is that on the front
end is more affordable,

821
00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:26,580
because you have kind of a ground lease,

822
00:40:26,580 --> 00:40:31,503
and the ground lease is
separated from the structure.

823
00:40:32,742 --> 00:40:37,116
And the ground lease gives the association

824
00:40:37,116 --> 00:40:39,830
the ability to put some
controls on the property.

825
00:40:39,830 --> 00:40:44,200
And the chief control is,
they cap how much appreciation

826
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,960
you can get when you sell the property.

827
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,870
So, you can't capture
the full market value,

828
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:50,680
you can capture some of the
appreciation, but not all.

829
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,680
So, it makes that unit
more accessible over time.

830
00:40:57,170 --> 00:41:00,266
I think when I began this
work in the early 2000s,

831
00:41:00,266 --> 00:41:03,230
foundations like the Ford Foundation,

832
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:05,650
that were not very supportive
of community land trust,

833
00:41:05,650 --> 00:41:07,840
because they thought
it was not a good tool

834
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,540
in terms of generating wealth,

835
00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:12,320
because they saw that
it artificially capped.

836
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,940
But I've talked to some
people I've been working

837
00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:17,500
with grantees of the Ford
Foundation, the last few years

838
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:20,677
and Ford Foundation, just
doesn't wanna work in land trust,

839
00:41:20,677 --> 00:41:22,530
it seems to have changed a little bit

840
00:41:22,530 --> 00:41:26,783
of its opinion on the merits
of a community land trust.

841
00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:32,690
So, I don't have any, if
we're talking about places

842
00:41:32,730 --> 00:41:35,210
where folks were displaced,
usually that was displaced,

843
00:41:35,210 --> 00:41:38,876
because the property
values just skyrocketed.

844
00:41:38,876 --> 00:41:43,876
And I'm not saying that
there aren't proposals,

845
00:41:45,370 --> 00:41:47,890
I'm just not familiar with any proposals,

846
00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:51,810
that in any significant way
talks about trying to provide

847
00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:56,810
redress for families who, were
pushed out either illegally,

848
00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:02,680
or just because of gentrification,

849
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,010
in terms of the just the rapidly

850
00:42:05,010 --> 00:42:07,573
appreciating real estate prices.

851
00:42:08,830 --> 00:42:10,220
- So we have a few minutes left

852
00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:13,300
and I'd kind of like to
finish on a happy note,

853
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:16,710
given that these are not
particularly happy times.

854
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:19,920
I just want you to take
us back to your experience

855
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,980
getting legislation done in Mississippi,

856
00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:24,650
and I know that that really pleased you.

857
00:42:24,650 --> 00:42:25,483
- Yeah.

858
00:42:25,483 --> 00:42:27,330
- When it happened,
this is a policy school

859
00:42:27,330 --> 00:42:29,730
people care about how policy is made.

860
00:42:29,730 --> 00:42:33,305
Take us a little bit through
how that actually happened.

861
00:42:33,305 --> 00:42:34,138
- Yeah.

862
00:42:34,138 --> 00:42:35,820
So, I think when I started
off in my research,

863
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:40,480
it was very much, I
think property scholars,

864
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,460
getting very much value my
research because they thought

865
00:42:42,460 --> 00:42:46,320
it was an incredibly
thoughtful detail, subtle,

866
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,450
but it was definitely,
there was an overarching

867
00:42:49,450 --> 00:42:51,960
kind of racial justice theme to it.

868
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,817
And it was really in the
drafting of this Uniform Act.

869
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,120
And I realized that politically,

870
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,870
I was gonna run into some problems.

871
00:43:03,282 --> 00:43:07,840
And the problem just even in
the drafting was that I heard

872
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,680
from so these, when I say the
uniform law commissioners,

873
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,580
there's 350 people in the country

874
00:43:12,580 --> 00:43:14,780
called uniform law commissioners.

875
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:17,460
They're all appointed by governors.

876
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:20,017
So, they politically connected people.

877
00:43:20,017 --> 00:43:21,320
And I had a couple,

878
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,930
about halfway through
the drafting process,

879
00:43:22,930 --> 00:43:24,080
was a three year process,

880
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,450
somebody pulled me aside
at one of the meetings

881
00:43:26,450 --> 00:43:28,750
and said, "listen, there's
a problem with your act."

882
00:43:28,750 --> 00:43:32,130
And people are saying it's the black act

883
00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:34,480
by the black drafter.

884
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,760
And I'm, in the 128 years
of uniform law commission,

885
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,290
I'm just the second African-American

886
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:42,395
ever to have served as
a principal drafter.

887
00:43:42,395 --> 00:43:44,850
And the message was, your
act is getting marginalized,

888
00:43:44,850 --> 00:43:48,080
and it might actually
get killed in committee.

889
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,740
So, that's where I realized,

890
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:51,460
I've got to be able to reframe

891
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:54,210
this as not purely an African-American,

892
00:43:54,210 --> 00:43:57,910
but a story that impacts
a number of families,

893
00:43:57,910 --> 00:44:01,870
going back to my data
about will making rates,

894
00:44:01,870 --> 00:44:04,833
but maybe disproportionately
African-Americans and Latinos.

895
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:07,960
And I really learned that lesson

896
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,650
when it came to trying
to go state to state

897
00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:12,840
to get this enacted into law.

898
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,440
So, what I learned
especially in the south,

899
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:15,860
but not exclusively in the south,

900
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:19,830
was that when I had to
testify before legislature,

901
00:44:19,830 --> 00:44:22,930
my story had to be that this
is a problem that impacts

902
00:44:22,930 --> 00:44:27,930
all kinds of communities,
racially and ethnically,

903
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,720
whether it's rural or urban
properties, kind of implicated.

904
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:37,720
And then I had to frame,
well, what is this about?

905
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:40,803
And I fundamentally
realized when I testified

906
00:44:41,932 --> 00:44:46,240
in some of these legislators
that my story needs

907
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:47,640
to be that this is fundamentally

908
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,250
about enhancing property
rights for these families,

909
00:44:51,250 --> 00:44:53,810
and protecting their real estate wealth.

910
00:44:53,810 --> 00:44:56,583
And that just became my kinda mantra.

911
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:59,520
And I think there was
there's a couple of states

912
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,793
where that was the game plan.

913
00:45:03,090 --> 00:45:06,500
And, I was in Texas a few years ago

914
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:10,470
when I was testifying to the Texas House.

915
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:14,040
And I saw that as the
House Judiciary Committee,

916
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,520
there was a consumer protection
bill up before my bill,

917
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,660
and really smart public interest attorney.

918
00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:25,340
And a third of the members of
the House just savaged her.

919
00:45:25,340 --> 00:45:27,700
They went after her mercilessly.

920
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:30,770
And I remember saying, I just
got to stick to my story.

921
00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:31,960
But I need to prepare

922
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,470
myself that I might have
these three or four guys

923
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:37,710
just brutally come after me.

924
00:45:37,710 --> 00:45:39,530
But I'll say, we'll see how it goes.

925
00:45:39,530 --> 00:45:42,260
And, but a minute into my presentation,

926
00:45:42,260 --> 00:45:44,650
I said, those three
things I just told you,

927
00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:47,650
and all of those guys were nodding,

928
00:45:47,650 --> 00:45:51,210
like, in agreement, uniform passage.

929
00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:53,010
Let me just tell you the
story about, I'm gonna move

930
00:45:53,010 --> 00:45:55,160
you from Mississippi to South Carolina.

931
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,161
South Carolina in about
2016, we introduced our bill,

932
00:45:59,161 --> 00:46:01,760
I testified in the South Carolina House,

933
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,560
it seemed everything was good.

934
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,430
We got a unanimous vote
out of the subcommittee

935
00:46:06,430 --> 00:46:08,660
of the House Judiciary Committee there.

936
00:46:08,660 --> 00:46:11,183
And folks told me as I
was leaving Columbia,

937
00:46:13,863 --> 00:46:15,730
with that kind of vote and subcommittee

938
00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:17,130
we were it was going to sail through.

939
00:46:17,130 --> 00:46:18,520
Well, about a week later,

940
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,320
I was at a conference at
University of Georgia,

941
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,030
I got an email that
said your bill is dead.

942
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:25,380
And a real estate developer
apparently had gotten

943
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,500
to the chair of the House
Judiciary Committee,

944
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:29,160
and he was putting a hold on it.

945
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:34,010
We overcame that through some
Hail Mary passes I threw.

946
00:46:34,010 --> 00:46:35,830
And that paid off,

947
00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:38,510
but then it went to the
South Carolina Senate.

948
00:46:38,510 --> 00:46:40,700
Once again, as the people I was working

949
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:43,850
with in South Carolina said
everything's going well,

950
00:46:43,850 --> 00:46:46,235
until it wasn't and I
got a email that said,

951
00:46:46,235 --> 00:46:50,150
or phone call, it said
there's two state senators

952
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:54,440
that have severe problems with your bill.

953
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,690
So our game plan was to have
them, they were gonna identify

954
00:46:57,690 --> 00:46:58,780
the issues that came up

955
00:46:58,780 --> 00:47:01,040
in that colloquy with those senators,

956
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,270
I would write a memo
addressing those concerns.

957
00:47:04,270 --> 00:47:05,880
It would be distributed to every member

958
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,260
of the Senate Judiciary
Committee in South Carolina.

959
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:11,470
And as a result of my memo
and basically convinced

960
00:47:11,470 --> 00:47:15,530
one of the two and so he
was then gonna support it.

961
00:47:15,530 --> 00:47:20,530
But the last one was a state
senator named Paul Thurmond.

962
00:47:21,250 --> 00:47:24,720
His dad was some guy named Strom Thurmond,

963
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:26,770
and he was hell bent on killing our bill.

964
00:47:28,140 --> 00:47:32,240
And this would be a
little more story I tell.

965
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:36,290
So, this goes back to I think
it was it was in 2016 or '17,

966
00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:37,960
where there was that massacre

967
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,843
at that Charleston African, AMA church.

968
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:48,130
The pastor who was
murdered in that massacre

969
00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:49,990
also was a state senator,

970
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:54,990
and he was a state senator
known for being most concerned

971
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,500
about improving property
rights protections

972
00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:01,143
for disadvantaged South
Carolina property owners,

973
00:48:02,020 --> 00:48:03,540
who were disproportionately

974
00:48:03,540 --> 00:48:05,590
but not exclusive African-American.

975
00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:08,500
His name was Clementa Pinckney.

976
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:12,560
So, at the last minute, because
Paul Thurman was hell bent

977
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,150
on doing everything he
could to kill our bill,

978
00:48:15,150 --> 00:48:17,990
the sponsors in the South
Carolina senate renamed

979
00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:22,990
it the Clementa Pinckney
uniform partition act

980
00:48:23,780 --> 00:48:26,370
is the only bill that the
South Carolina legislature

981
00:48:26,370 --> 00:48:28,648
has ever named after Clementa Pinckney.

982
00:48:28,648 --> 00:48:31,430
And essentially there were
a number of state senators

983
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:33,000
who were on the fence,

984
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,800
but they decided they were not gonna vote

985
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,090
against the only bill
honoring Clementa Pinckney.

986
00:48:38,090 --> 00:48:41,290
And so as a result,
the only person to vote

987
00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:44,560
against it in the South Carolina
Senate was Paul Thurmond.

988
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,760
It kind of sailed through as a result

989
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,223
of it being named in honor
of Clementa Pinckney.

990
00:48:50,210 --> 00:48:53,760
Then Governor Nikki Haley invited
me to a ceremonial signing

991
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,433
in her office with two other people.

992
00:49:00,230 --> 00:49:04,000
It's kind of it's obviously
a sad story what happened

993
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,410
at that Charleston church,
but part of me is happy

994
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:09,460
that at least we have honored the heritage

995
00:49:09,460 --> 00:49:14,460
of Clementa Pinckney by using his name

996
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:16,903
to help get our bill over the line.

997
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:20,340
- So Thomas Mitchell, thank you very much

998
00:49:20,340 --> 00:49:23,100
for spending some time
with us this afternoon.

999
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:26,930
Really interesting and inspiring stuff.

1000
00:49:26,930 --> 00:49:30,290
Let's make things even
better going forward.

1001
00:49:30,290 --> 00:49:34,900
I wanna thank Dean Dana
Goldman for arranging this.

1002
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:37,660
I also wanna thank the Price School,

1003
00:49:37,660 --> 00:49:40,560
Office of External Affairs
for doing the wonderful job

1004
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,130
they always do to organize this.

1005
00:49:43,130 --> 00:49:46,260
And Dana, you want a last word?

1006
00:49:46,260 --> 00:49:48,860
- No, just thank you
fascinating discussion.

1007
00:49:48,860 --> 00:49:49,930
Thank you both.

1008
00:49:49,930 --> 00:49:51,390
Really appreciate it.

1009
00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:53,290
- Thank you, everyone, for joining us.